Warrior skill changes

Discussion in 'Class rework ideas' started by StarbreakerHK7, Sep 27, 2016.

  1. So I noticed there's the new "Class rework ideas" section so I thought I'd left my suggestions on possible tweaks to the v86 skill changes for Paladins. Do feel free to leave suggestions for the other warrior classes too, as I feel like Heroes need a bit of love too.

    https://msupdate.wordpress.com/2010/06/15/gms-v86-notes/
    This is the list of v86 changes and there are three major changes to Paladins:


    Fire Charge, Holy Charge and Blast buff
    These are great and very self-explanatory but I feel like ice charge has been left out a bit.

    110% power is absolutely pathetic compared to the 140/150% fire and holy charge got, and the only excuse for that is that ice charge can freeze, which is made redundant by the fact that advanced charge blow stuns 90% of time.

    I suggest buffing ice charge to 130%, which is the same buff that fire charge got, is slightly stronger than the "support charge" lightning and looks nice with the 140% and 150% from fire/holy.


    Threaten
    Now reduces enemies' ATT, DEF and Accuracy by 20%. This sounds great on paper but let's look at how much of an offensive boost this really is:

    I'm not entirely sure how monster defense works in v83 but assuming it's 2 monster def = -1 player damage, threaten would only increase your damage by 176 per line against Horntail.

    Even if threaten was 100% it would only increase your damage by 880 per line, which means the defense reduction is pretty worthless. I find that the only way to make the DEF reduction good would be to have it reduce Pink Bean's DR by a certain amount as well.

    Now the ATT and Accuracy reduction on the other hand, these two make threaten an amazing defensive skill. The monster damage formula is monsterwatt^2/125(or 135?), which means that a 20% attack reduction would neuter Horntail's touch damage to below 9k with HTP. The accuracy reduction just makes it even easier to avoid damage. These two alone could justify the DEF reduction being left as weak as it is.

    The success rate and the accuracy duration could be looked into a bit as well. I feel like 50% success rate is a bit low for something with a 80 (8 for accuracy) second duration.


    Stacking Lightning Charge

    Easily the best one of the lot but I assume it's also the hardest to implement out of all the v86 skill changes.

    If it proves impossible to implement, I'd suggest just straight up buffing all the charges to the same (or slightly lower) damage as they would be with this.

    For an example 170% holy, 165% lightning (middle ground between fire and holy damage with stacking lightning), 160% fire and 150% ice. All the former are 5% weaker than with stacking lightning, and line up pretty nicely with the current charge damage values.


    Misc. Suggestions
    Advanced Charge Blow could use a 10-20% boost. It's a great skill normally but can fall behind the overall Hero damage even against 4 targets with the v86 buffs (depending on the enemy elemental weaknesses.)

    Make shield mastery +100 def instead of +100% def. Makes the skill actually worth picking (optional with the Timeless Shield change below.)

    Give Timeless Kite Shield 3 extra slots. Makes no sense that a level 20 shield is the endgame shield. This would at least make the Timeless Shield a viable alternative.

    Make rage stack with enrage or attack potions. Would be a very helpful buff for heroes and makes them actually wanted in parties (making enrage stack with potions would probably be a bit too much though.)

    Make monster magnet work on bosses, just like rush and snatch. A small change that could make the skill worth picking.

    Remove the client side 1 damage and turn it into a miss/guard when a monster hits for 0. It's just annoying and it's a miss anyway when another player sees you being hit for 0.


    Leave suggestions for the other warrior classes as well. I just thought it would be nice to leave my thoughts on mainly the Paladin skill changes for the staff.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2016
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  2. corsetti

    corsetti Community Member Donator

    Very nice suggestions, I agree with all of the pally buffs as it is much needed.
    Not sure how well stackable Rage will go though, as that might be a little too op. But numbers are worth more than words so we'll see.
     
  3. Polar

    Polar Literally Jesus Event Winner Donator

    Great intiative. I agree on the pally changes. The class is made as a solo-damage-output class, and curren thttly it does not have the damage it should be treated too. I'll edit this comment once i get home to shed more light on the basis of my opinion.
     
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  4. Janic

    Janic Here to stay

    I like the suggestions. Doesn't make warriors be OP but makes then be nice to increase the dps of the team. Just like SE and SI.
     
  5. killakumbi

    killakumbi Well-Known

    It'd be super tight if all Hero's buffs had the same duration. Other than that I'm cool with Hero's. You're suggestions about the pally are great too I think. It wouldn't be OP but it'd definitely help them catch up and hopefully encourage more people to play the class.

    Edit: didn't notice what you put about rage stacking with potions. That'd be awesome! Kinda messed up that Hero's only party skill is actually a hindrance to the party atm lol
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
  6. Would be nice if Power Guard lasted a bit loger, yes. It just feels pointless to use while training, and when it's maxed it's annoying since it lasts just a minute and a half.
     
  7. LiOoN

    LiOoN Oldie Donator

    Since lb is out and rage stack is a suggestion, make Hex of Beholder stack the Weapon Att buff(imo all stats buff should stack, but this is the most important) so we can level it from 20 to 25 and give Dark Knight some love too.

    Also make Monster Magnetic get the target from bosses so it can have an use. As in HBPQ when the target dcs and party may lose big dps.
     
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  8. Polar

    Polar Literally Jesus Event Winner Donator

    How about No and no.

    DrKs are by far the most useful class, and their usefullness was _JUST_ buffed in the latest patch.

    If you want more of a discussion around it, don't hijack someones thread, thats just beeing an ass
    [​IMG]
     
  9. v86 makes it not override larger buffs so you can safely increase it to level 25 and still apple/gelt/nari.
     
  10. janzzz

    janzzz Active

    Sorry to revive an old thread, but I didn't want to start a new one when there was an existing one.

    I started a fighter/crusader and meant to suggest if Rage could be stacked with weapon att pots. This would be helpful as it gives the class something to contribute in parties, instead of cancelling weapon att pots that last for a longer duration anyway and make the skill obsolete.

    Thank you!
     
  11. Slazzy

    Slazzy Rana Forum mod Staff

    That has been approved and is a work in progress.
     
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  12. Tengzilla

    Tengzilla Well-Known

    Perhaps I could make a suggestion here on this topic: To let threaten work on bosses. This would allow Palas to be more welcomed in bossing parties as they can lower damage of bosses for members to tank better alongside lowering their defense for a higher dps of party overall.

    There was a patch before big bang that allowed threaten to work on bosses alongside with allowing mages' slow to work on bosses too. Allowing mages slow to work on bosses such as anego would allow it to be more easily pinned and make mages stand out a little more too.
     
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  13. corsetti

    corsetti Community Member Donator

    Certain debuffs like these shoulda been made to work on bosses from the start. Debuffs like darkness, or stuns on bosses would just be broken, but debuffs that reduce a bosses stats like defense or attack would be amazing on zak, ht or even pb. Add threaten to work on bosses, as well as soonTM stacking Lightning charge, and pallys will be on top, which I see no complaints.
     
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  14. Pyrogore

    Pyrogore Well-Known

    I agree with this. Honestly, as much as I love messing around with my hero, paladins deserve their own spot. Even after v.86 changes, pallys were still lacking in power (leading to them obtaining combat orders in later versions). Given that the party lead would have choices between HB from Drks and Rage from heroes, paladins would need a boost in their appeal. First and foremost, they SHOULD be the top warrior class for single target DPS to counterbalance the fact they do not have a major party buff. l'd say the following would make paladins strong enough to warrant partying:

    1. Stackable lightning.
    2. Make lightning/ice charge multipliers for pally equal to fire.
    3. Boss-functional Threaten.

    The last one wouldn't necessarily be as good as other skills like rage and HB, but would have very nice niche applications. For instance, threaten on Pink Bean would have an impact on DPS quite a bit due to his absurdly high defense. It would also offer incentive to other players to even consider partying paladins as single target DPS compared to just adding an additional nightlord to the party. Having both MC (PC) and threaten as niche skills, plus relatively high warrior DPS (still less than NL of course) would be a nice balance for them, and helps diversify the warrior branch even further. Make no mistake about it, heroes would still be a better option for paladins at HT/zakum/HeBPQ due to the multi-hit capability, but this would give us more options.
     
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  15. I'd like to see threaten work on bosses too but it kinda sucks thanks to how monster stats work.

    The -def aspect of threaten increases your damage by less than 500 per line against bosses with very high defense, and it doesn't work against Pink Bean's DR. The -accuracy sucks as well thanks to the 8 second duration (and I bet monster accuracy has some stupid formula that makes it worse than 20% sounds anyway). Now the -att on the other hand, I'd go as far as to say it's op in fights where you're likely to take a lot of touch damage. It'll cut Horntail's touch damage by about 4k and Pink Bean's touch damage by 7k-9k. The -att is completely worthless against monsters with low touch damage though.

    I'd just like these three aspects balanced like the skill description says. It could be done by making the skill increase the damage done to the monster and decrease the damage taken from it by a set percentage instead of using the monsters stats. The duration of the accuracy debuff should also be buffed and the magnitude nerfed and possibly turned into a similar set percentage as the previous two to make it balanced with them. That way all of them are worthwhile, balanced and less inconsistent.

    I'd also like to see the duration buffed to at least 120 seconds because 80 is way too low in fights like HT where you have to jump down to the bottom to use it.

    Edit: Almost forgot about that 50% success rate. Honestly it isn't necessary and the skill wouldn't be broken with a 100% success rate. Just makes it less annoying to debuff monsters since you don't have to spam it until you get it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  16. Tengzilla

    Tengzilla Well-Known

    Would agree with buffing the lightning and ice charge multipliers too, especially ice. Even on ice-weak, its only a multiplier of 165% which is already low compared to what the heroes are getting ( if i am not wrong, advanced combo is 200%?)
     
  17. Pyrogore

    Pyrogore Well-Known

    Single dps-wise, I believe lightning stacks at 125% place paladin on a similar level to hero (if lightning strength/resistance is eliminated). However paladins need to be stronger than hero at neutral to balance them out compared to the other warriors, which is why I suggested ice/lightning be at fire's level (150%) to compensate for pallys main disadvantage as a single DPS class. The elemental bonus on top of that is the benefit of paladin whereas multi-hits are for heroes. Even after such a change, heroes will still be king at things like HT, Zak, HeBPQ, but at least pallys can start carving a niche for themselves, right now they're a weak and unappealing PC alternative to Drks.
     
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