HardMode Zakum Prize - REWORK

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Winks, Jul 17, 2018.

  1. Winks

    Winks Oldie Donator

    currently is considered an endgame boss, but I think it was a project that could still get much more potential for end game, the prizes that can be acquired when completing are kinda "weak", I think a simple change in the points system and add some more rewarding things could be interesting and still more people to run back to complete more times, in the current situation everyone only does a few times to get the medal and the helmet to use chaos , I believe that a point system equal to the dojo could be very interesting where the points were cumulative but were only reset after obtaining the last prize of the list.

    Let's assume that with each run completed we get 10 points

    The points are just examples and will be duly changed by the staff.

    This could also work as a different way to get your beloved belt att, because many people do not like dojo, and worse when we mention having to farm all those ores.

    07/18 Edited.

    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
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  2. SweetPayback

    SweetPayback Literally Jesus

    Any explanation on what these items are ......
  3. Winks

    Winks Oldie Donator

    Helmet its just the same one , Broken Glass... the same one with improved stats let's assume "3 all" the belt its a post bigbang OP Enraged Zakum Belt belt but ofc nerfed.
  4. LiOoN

    LiOoN Oldie Donator

    I liked the idea but the part where it resets only after getting the last item.

    Make HMZH back to 10 points(1 per run) and let people decide wether they want a belt att or 5 HMZH's.

    Then this suggestion becomes: add more items to trade with hmzak tokens, and I really like this idea because hmzak is the most challenging content we got and its fun(gj devs).
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  5. Mufasa

    Mufasa Well-Known Developer Staff

    I like the idea of having more rewards from hmzak, especially the belt. As you've mentioned, people generally don't like the dojo grind, and I don't blame them, I don't either hehe.
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  6. LiOoN

    LiOoN Oldie Donator

    In many games there're many ways of acquiring the same goal, in this case we're talking about belt att, but I like the glasses idea as well =D.

    I believe the dojo has a bad mechanic right now, punishing people who party together(you earn less points), with no incentive to finish it if it's not your first time(you get more over time if you leave before finishing). That being said, giving an option to this would be very welcomed.
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  7. Mufasa

    Mufasa Well-Known Developer Staff

    If I may add to the idea:
    We could add custom scrolls to that same store too, which can ONLY be applied to these belts/glasses, and these belts/glasses can ONLY be scrolled with these scrolls as well. (HMzhelm will remain as it is)
    They could act as a chaos scroll does, the cost would be 5 points. That means you could get 2 scrolls per run.

    This means current ways of obtaining/scrolling such items is still viable to do, but there's an alternative, which could be more appealing to certain people.
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  8. panatown

    panatown Here to stay Event Winner

    as far as i understand, this is not true of current patch dms dojo (same points regardless of whether you are in a party or solo).

    I would be slow to add new equipment tacked on to current content which is already quite rewarding (best medal by a mile, tradeable best helmets by a mile, nx per complete)
    the proposed item seems to be better than the current best in slot item, an entirely untradeable one, locked behind a difficult custom quest which makes use of items or content otherwise entirely neglected (dojo, all the gems), and in any case is made by items which can all be bought with meso.

    if hmzak really needs to be revamped, a more moderate proposal may be for items such as helm luk or helm str scrolls to be introduced, either in hmzak itself, or in other content currently not very used (toad, or area bosses like faust).

    I do agree that the incentives are not all that great with dojo however, and perhaps the points (perhaps mugong+pap can give 30-40 points instead of just 15?) or nx (it is a pq after all) given for killing the harder bosses like papulatus and mu gong can be looked at.
    perhaps also link it to other pq-esque rewards like possibilities of css or cs per complete (available to LMPQ or HPQ i believe), APRs (like guild pq) or some rare nx or chairs (gif panda chair please)

    another possibility for improving dojo rewards is to make it somewhat competitive - later versions had dojo solo timing leaderboards, with strong, time-limited (1 week? or 1 month) equipment provided to the winner. we might be able to do a similar thing here, and the rewards may be purely cosmetic (a title? rare nx bags? choice of rare nx?), or may be items with in-game impact (perhaps a strong-ish ring, something like 3 all, 3 wa/ma?)

    eg. something like this ring from prewipe

    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
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  9. erzengel

    erzengel Oldie Donator

    I like your idea the most!
    In my opinion the only thing that should be buffed in HM Zakum is the daily nx reward, 4500 is not fair for the difficulty, PB gives 9k, hmzak should give 15k or so.
    I will think about a way to improve dojo later this week, probably gonna use some of your ideas if you agree =)
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  10. Jakle

    Jakle Well-Known

    I would expect the belt to be untradable, and would suggest that the glasses are as well. Unless the devs are ok with moving a bit more of the incentive to LPQ towards bossing.

    I think that dojo is pretty cool content actually; though I definitely agree that the grind could be more approachable.
    I'd support a major increase to dojo points for the later bosses.
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  11. Winks

    Winks Oldie Donator

    yea , thx for Support jacky ! :heart:
  12. Winks

    Winks Oldie Donator

    Thanks for the suggestions I will make some changes in the original post as mentioned, I really liked the part of the scrolls, could be something interesting
  13. Atticus Lee

    Atticus Lee Oldie Event Winner

    I haven't quite had the opportunity quite yet to do HMZak, so please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

    There are various issues I have with HMZak itself and I can't quite find the words to put it all together, so I'll take it by bullet points.
    Show Spoiler

    -"the strong gets stronger": A party that can take down HMZak already needs to be strong. Adding more items to make them stronger only makes them able to do more successful runs, and that ends up eventually making it a farmable endgame boss (which is what PB has come to as well). It's probably inevitable that all bosses come to this point, but considering how HMZak was designed/set-up, its within the developer's power to prevent this from happening.

    -Player Networking: Since the party limit is six, this means every individual needs to be strong, or only five needs to be very strong and the sixth be decently strong. It seems to me that this only encourages "meta classes" and player networking. The former cases has a better success rate with a random party, and the latter enables off-meta classes to be able to do HMZak.

    -Tailored Party Composition: Certain party spots already require certain classes. One for Dark Knights (Hyper Body), one for Arans (mobbing + 1v1ing, mob clearing), one for Night Lord (Arm2 and 1v1), one for archers (Arm2, SE support, and decent 1v1). This only leaves two other spots left for "off-meta classes". But there's a time limit so those last two slots need to be individually stronger if they're an "off-meta" class.

    -Success Rate: A party that can take down HMZak can do it over and over with the same party. The success rate is typically 100% unless someone messes up or if they only barely made it. Failing at HMZak is actually quite forgiving compared to failing something like PB or HT. There's typically nothing of value to lose other than time, day entry, and gelts (unless Naris were used). HT still has exp value and drop values, and a full-man PB run requires organization (back when the server needed 9-12 people. I'm aware that 6man runs are common now, but this was bound to happen all things considered).

    -Economic Monopoly/Oligarchy: having HMZak exclusive prizes means that certain groups of players have direct control over its price and availability. Even if demand decreases, the Zero Token can be "kepted" until a trade arrangement is made.

    Every point is interconnected which makes balancing prizes kinda difficult. With New Continent coming things might be different, but until then these are my complaints.

    If anything as a prize, I think an "anti negative W.Att + M.Att" scroll for Waist Warmer wouldn't be horrible. It would prevents subtracting w.att and m.att from Waist Warmers. For balance purposes it also prevents using White Scrolls and doesn't protect against 40% failed Chaos Scrolls.

    Wait Warmers still exist so this doesn't particularly support the "strong gets stronger" notion. It only makes playing the RNG game less infuriating (although CSS scrolls might still be needed for failed Chaos Scrolls).
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  14. panatown

    panatown Here to stay Event Winner

    i may not have been clear enough before, so i would like to reiterate my views.

    i think that hmzak incentives are ok, and if there is a problem with the ways to get wa belts or glasses, the best ways to solve these is not to tack them on to hmzak, but rather to make the current content for those things either more interesting or profitable (by buffing dojo directly, particuarly for the last stages; by reducing the number of completions to get a pair of glasses; by introducing luk/int glasses as the flipside to spectrum glasses, or eye str/dex/luk scrolls), or to tack them on to current content that already exists but is currently undone because it is unprofitable (toad, area bosses, opq, carnival pq, the incoming ariant pq etc).

    if you must incentivize hmzak, best to do so indirectly by the introduction of those new scrolls.
    as a side note, 15k nx seems way too much for hmzak, considering that it is a short run (half the length of pb), and that the daily nx for everything combined is only like 21k, after buffs? hmzak should not form such a big bulk of the daily nx.

    i do like the introduction of chaos scrolls of goodness tho, but i'm not sure what content it should be introduced in

    also just a small nitpick with atticus' blurb on hmzak; since hb doesnt work in the hmzak map, dks are taken for PC only.

    therefore, paladins are actually probably the superior option for a hmzak party, as long as there are 2 other melee mobbers,

    they are more survivable as they are typically washed to 30k instead of 19k or so, and they have the benefit of power guard and guardian (if 1h paladin).

    they also outdamage drks significantly once arms are down, particularly in the later parts of the run when drks cannot safely zerk.

    they are outdamaged by drks at arms, but the 3 bodies are the longer part of the hmzak run, and with 2 other melee mobbers (basically arans or heroes) the arms go rather fast.
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
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  15. Atticus Lee

    Atticus Lee Oldie Event Winner

    I was told that HB does work in HMzak; that its not visible over the max limit (30k) but still usable with HP ticks. Unless this was changed at some point?
  16. panatown

    panatown Here to stay Event Winner

    my experience with hb is that my max hp goes up from 15k to 24k, but once the ticks start, drinking potions will not allow me to go above 15k hp (or whatever my maxhp should actually be).

    i'll take a screenshot of this the next time i get into a hmzak party.

    on a related note, the ticks also seem to ignore hp granted by equips, which is somewhat counterintuitive.
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  17. Jakle

    Jakle Well-Known

    Stating the obvious but; the biggest problem with trying to LPQ now is the player-count. When the server was more active I don't think it was particularly hard to find an LPQ party. Just in case an argument that an alternative should be implemented "because nobody does LPQ anyway" is made.

    I like this idea, it encourages repeatedly doing HMZak and I think can be implemented to be untradeable (minimizing the effect of "The Strong Get Stronger" and the "Economic Monopoly" you mentioned by removing their ability to convert the reward into meso).

    Other consumables which I think might be suitable; untradeable CSS, the item which will reset Rev/TL levels.
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
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